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Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 21:08:02 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #135 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Re: questions (james jr. sy) 2. Inosanto and Kali (gatpuno@aol.com) 3. Gatpuno Abon and Yambao's book (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #134 - 9 msgs) (Pananandta@aol.com) 4. The Indian connection (bgdebuque) 5. RE: Differences in Dizon's Escriam and Angel's Serrada - what do you m (Doug Robertson) 6. Re: The Indian connection (Ray) 7. Re: Differences in Dizon's Eskrima and Angel's Serrada (Eagle556@aol.com) 8. Re: Kali (Eskrima de Campo JDC-IO U.S.A.) 9. Re: Differences in Dizon's Escriam and Angel's (Ray) 10. Re: The Indian connection (Wieneke, Myron) 11. Absolutely nothing to do with kali... (Michael Koblic) 12. Re: Absolutely nothing to do with kali... (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 07:03:52 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: questions To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net As long as Kali proponents would continue to claim that Kali is the mother art, original, more comprehensive, purer, all encompassing, more effective, blade based etc., proponents of Arnis and Escrima, especially the Filipinos, will continue to defend the legacy left by their masters. Such claims disrespect the thousands of dead and living FMA GMs, masters, and guros (too many to list here) who had used their “inferior” Arnis and Escrima in actual personal combat as well as distort the real history of the Filipino warriors. Filipinos stood their ground against invaders of their land for centuries; the new era will not be different. maurice gatdula wrote: i tried to send this before and it didnt post. maurice gatdula wrote: is this saying that these men are saying the art they do have ALWAYS been called "KALI"? use the word, i do! but when you use the word kali, to say, "my art is OLDER, more ORIGINAL, the PURE, art to arnis or eskrima", that is a problem. please for the respect of the filipinos here, and for those who know FMA history, even the history of your art, lets not go there. anyway, who cares that arnis and eskrima have spanish names. like somebody said earlier, all that matters is, is this art effective. but also, how truthful is the teacher teaching it. it does not matter what the art is called, then whoever has the insecurity to feel he needs to give "authenticy" to his art, by calling it older, purer, etc. has another problem. while we are talking about truth, lets tell another truth. what some people want to say by using the word "KALI", is to say "MY ART IS BETTER", without saynig it. nothing wrong with that. but it sounds like some people afraid to say, my art is better. which better way to make this statement without being challenged on it, but to say my art is the pure art, older than yours, older than mine. it changes the argument and the subject doesnt it? if we want to get the philosophy of the philippine arts, the question is, can you beat me, or can i beat you. not what rank you are, not what art your doing, who you study with, or what you call your style. tuhon, datu, punong guro, masguro, those are silly arguments. as a fighter, the most important question is not even about is this style better than mine, but are you a better fighter than the next guy. call your art what you want, just dont call it better than what i do or say your a better fighter than me, then we got a problem. back to reading posts.... -- __--__-- Message: 4 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:20:16 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Guru, masguru, James Sy. (Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #123 - 5 msgs) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I wrote an article on the origin of the word kali in the June 2005 issue of Inside Kungfu. In my article I traced the origin of the word kalisin to kali. However, James Sy said the word kalisin has nothing to do with the FMA. I would not fault Mr. Sy for not knowing the relationship between the two words. Even heads of systems such as Ben Largusa couldn't explain the origin of the word kali. Chris (Sayoc Kali) couldn't explain it either. So does Kali Illustrisimo. None among those who use the word kali as part of their system's name could explain the word kali. They had at best theories that does not do anything but wing an explanation. I did some research on the origin of Tagalog words - about 15 years at the big public library in Manhattan (NY). I pored through Sanskrit and Indian dictionaries to find which among the Tagalog words that I knew originated from Sanskrit. I found quite a few. (Indeed, a book was written on Tagalog and Sanskrit words back in 1898.) Perhaps, it would help if I explain the relations between kalisin (meaning to scrape) and the word/fighting art kali. Mr. Sy did a direct Tagalog to English translation. A direct translation is usually off the mark because something is lost in between. In his case, Mr. Sy couldn't see the relationship. Here is the relationship. When a kali man or a FMA man fights, they try to remove (scrape) layers of defenses of the enemy so he can get to the enemy's body. This should be explanation enough. Mr. Sy mentioned a few names of teachers in his email. I was a former professor and board reviewer in Chemical Engineering at Adamson University in Manila from 1963 to 1973. Tagalog is my dialect. I speak both literary and contemporary Tagalog. Best regards to all EDer's APMarinas Sr. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. --__--__-- Message: 2 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 10:10:38 -0400 From: gatpuno@aol.com Subject: [Eskrima] Inosanto and Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Guro Maurice, You are absolutely right I dont heard "Karate" and "Kung-Fu" till 1972, when first time my Father surprised us he brought home Black and White TV. Then I see it on TV and more in movies. And I dont know Dan Inosanto till I start working out here in the US on 1990. I only heard over a friend of mine, he said that he will be giving Seminar in Kali "Filipino Martial Arts" in Sifu Dwight Wood School. I went and that the first time I met GM Bo Sayoc too. I watch and participated to see what is all about. I also meet the Son of Bujeen Mateen the first Pikiti Tirsia here in Florida Timujeen Mateen the God Son of GM Leo Gaje. I was surprised when I see the "Kali" it is Arnis I said and I easily fit in to the class and according to Al Sardinas (That beome my student esince then), that Temujin and GM Bo eyes is with me and saying watch that Filipino guy, he is very good. Then we have "Lunch with Guro Inosanto, GM Bo and Temujin that day, and I said to GM Bo. This is "Kali"? It is Arnis, Eskrima? He said yes I didn't know I said. Then I started to research about it, then I found ourt that this is more "Myth names". You nailed it, we dont know anyhting about this, since Dan Inosanto . Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com a scholar said, you have to be careful not to believe every document you finded is true, just because it is 1,000 years old. but you also have to be careful you dont believe everything this scholar said, just because he is historian. and you have to be careful you dont believe everything that came from greece, just because the bible is written in greece. many historians, even the ones who are around 500, 1,000 years ago, might be wrong. you repeat a false story enough, and people will swear it is real. how many people believe the "leathernecks" story is orginated in the philippines. how many people believe all martial arts comes from shaolin? how many people believe that kenpo is really "chinese karate"??? i remember as a boy i saw a school who says that his arnis, came from lapu lapu himself... filipinos, in the philippines, didnt have too many books and magazines to read about the martial arts 20 years ago, so they read the american books and magazines. many filipinos, even filipino "grandmasters" saw that "kali is the mother art" so they began to say, my art is the mother art. well here we are 20, 30 years later, and they have to defend the use of it. its too late to say "i read it in danny inosanto's book", so they have to come up with bs to support their use, even when they debate with another filipino. to answer why some "masters" have KALI in their name, and they cant explain it. i say bullshit. they can explain. they WONT explain. in 1970 most of these ex-eskrimador, probably never heard of placido yambao's book, but they dam sure heard of danny inosantos. book. -- __--__-- ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 12:25:50 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Gatpuno Abon and Yambao's book (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #134 - 9 msgs) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Gatpuno Abon, Very astute observation on the footwork although I have not seen the book. I am brutally blunt with respect to a book's content and even if I see it I will not comment unless I talk with the author first. On another note: I have exchanged personal emails with Gatpuno Abon in the past. A couple of years back, he said he was going to the Philippines for a few weeks and it would be very helpful if he could bring some FMA books written in the US to his trip home. I said, "Gatpuno, there is no better book than the one written by Placido Yambao." But of course, I am biased. Re: the names of the strikes - I made a comparative study of the different sequences of basic strikes and their names used by a number of systems in the June 1989 issue of Inside Kungfu. I would have included more systems in the study. However, at the time, those were the only ones I knew about. Those included in the study (alphabetically) were Brocka, Cabales, Canete, Gaje, Inosanto, Jalmaani, Lanada, Lastra, Marinas and Presas. Regards. APMarinas Sr. In a message dated 5/5/2007 10:27:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: May I mention one of the differences between "Visayan Practitioner is the used of" Tiay stance, which the back foot is always in tip toe stances. In Luzon style of Arnis/Eskrima all of us, is flat footed, mean grounded to the floor, and the used of 45 degree and 90 degree turn of the feet is common to us. I noticed GM or Kabaroan Estallilla , GM Leo Giron, PG Mat Marinas himself and is all Flat footed in our footwork and you can see it in our stances. We only tip toe after the strike or after the blow if we are in the stationary position. Well the strike we always strike full streched arm, which is signifant to the styles Largo mano. I am not saying we never bend our elbow, it depent if we go inside the Corto Ranges then we bent our elbow to compensate the distance. Anwyay I just want to tell you all its so funny to me that other GM is thinking of doing this. Well goodluck and hope to see your interpretation. We used to call the strike the same as Placido yambao, so it not hard for me to interpret them at all. Thank you, ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 12:33:37 -0400 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] The Indian connection Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I think there is already a fair degree of acceptance of the Indian origins of Japanese Karate through the Boddhidharma-Shaoilin Kung Fu-Okinawan Karate line. Since it is also heavily-based on Northern Shaolin Kung Fu, as well as Japanese Karate, it appears that even Korean Karate has Indian roots too. Now, it is interesting to note that the spread of Indian martials in Northeast Asia was only a sideshow to India's main contribution to Northeast Asian culture - Buddhism. Wherever Buddhism went, Indian martial arts followed. In Southeast Asia, not only Buddhism but Hinduism as well became the platforms of the spread of Indian culture. Southeast Asia used to be ruled by a succession of Buddhist and Hindu empires. The areas covered by these empires include modern-day Indonesia and Malaysia, Southern Thailand, Southern Cambodia, as well as Central and Southern Philippines. If you juxtapose the experience of China, Japan and Korea with Buddhism, it would be logical to assume that Indian martial arts also made a piggy-back ride on the spread of Buddhism and Hinduism in Southeast Asia. I'm not sure whether it was Discovery Channel or National Geographic which embarked on a search for the remnant of any ancient Indian martial art which could be the possible forebear of modern Northeast Asian martial arts. What I'm sure though is that their search ultimately led them to Kelari Province of Southern India and the martial art of Kalaripayattu. It is, therefore, logical to assume that the Shaolin Kung Fu-Okinawan Karate-Japanese Karate line in the North also have a Southern counterpart - the Silat-FMA line. BTW, my recent research also indicated that even the famed Damascus blades of Indonesia, Malaysia and Southern Philippines are also of Indian origins - the Arabs merely served as the conduit of the transfer of technology. In case you have further doubts on the Indian origins of "Kali', just tune-in to Monday night WWE wrestling. There's an Indian wrestler there touted to be bigger than the late Andre the Giant who calls himself "The Great Khali"..... =[:->] When it is postulated that FMA originated from the Indian Martial Arts the > already messy and chaotic debate whether Kali is indeed Filipino or > Indonesian is further clouded and strays us from the truth farther. If we > hope for this theory to be taken seriously what we need would be more than > supposition. > > bgdebuque wrote: > I think you are on the right track. > > It appears that the ancient martial art from South India of Kalaripayattu > have spawned several martial arts-based performing arts, all of which have > "kali" affixed to it - KOLKALI, VELAKALI, THACHOLIKALI and KATHAKALI. > > KOLKALI is particularly interesting. According to Wikipedia: "The dance > performers move in a circle, striking small sticks and keeping rhythm with > special steps. The circle expands and contracts as the dance progress." > > Kalaripayattu is now highly-suspected as the possible origin of Shaolin > Kung > Fu. It would not be highly remote that it could also be the origin of the > FMA. If that is really the case, the use of "Kali" to refer to the FMA > would not be without basis at all. --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Doug Robertson" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Differences in Dizon's Escriam and Angel's Serrada - what do you m Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 18:56:30 +0000 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Don't forget Tatang's influence on Angel, as we know Angel was Dizon's student but also learnt from Tatang in Manila. yours, Doug >From: Guro Dennis Servaes >Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [Eskrima] Differences in Dizon's Escriam and Angel's Serrada - >what do you mean? >Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 17:06:24 -0700 (PDT) > >Ray > There are individual differences in Serrada, for instance I can >sometimes tell who someone has been working out with from the way they do >their techniques. Master Grabriel Asucion, used to get asked by Great >Grandmaster Angel Cabales, "You been workin' out with Vincent?" He could >tell because of simularities of correct movement. > However, just because someone claims something in an email or someone >claims to have studied from one of Dizon's other students that doesn't do >Escrima like Angel, doesn't mean that Dizon and Angel's Systems are >different. People's perceptions and rationalizations can come up with all >kinds of stuff. Dizon and Angel's arts are essentially the same thing. >How could you say "not at all alike?" > > In 1,000 years from now the art will still be the same, or else you >should call it something else. Serrada doesn't need to change. Some of >the techniques people learn from other systems in hopes of improving >Serrada, it might surprise some people to know that those same techniques >have been around a long time, and just because they never saw Angel or >Dizon do them doesn't mean that they didn't know the particular techniques. > Also, there is only so much that a person is able to do in a >confrontation, so it is best to stick to what you are taught pretty much. >The basics. > > Maybe we have different interpretations about the meanings of the word >'influence,' but I think implying that Dentoy was an influence on Serrada >is misleading. Dentoy was rather influenced by Angel, as he trained in >Serrada- from Angel. So do you mean that as a student he infuenced >Serrada teaching methods? How specifically do you mean? > > Train hard and have fun! > Dennis > > > >Dizon's Eskrima and Cabales' Serrada are very different, not at all > >alike. > >Why? We can only guess. > > >Ray Terry > >rterry@idiom.com >_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net _________________________________________________________________ Txt a lot? Get Messenger FREE on your mobile. https://livemessenger.mobile.uk.msn.com/ --__--__-- Message: 6 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] The Indian connection To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 12:16:47 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > In Southeast Asia, not only Buddhism but Hinduism as well became the > platforms of the spread of Indian culture. Southeast Asia used to be ruled > by a succession of Buddhist and Hindu empires. The areas covered by these > empires include modern-day Indonesia and Malaysia, Southern Thailand, > Southern Cambodia, as well as Central and Southern Philippines. Interesting... Is it indeed a historical fact that Buddhism and Hinduism at one time enjoyed wide acceptance in the Philippines? Or more that Buddhist and Hindi rulers considered the islands as part of their broader empire? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Eagle556@aol.com Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 15:19:48 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Differences in Dizon's Eskrima and Angel's Serrada Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net << When I first started training with Mike Inay back in the 70s I had the extreme good fortune to train with Dentoy on a couple of occasions. Mike always spoke very, very highly of Dentoy. Mike lead me to believe that it was Dentoy who was primarily responsible for the organization within the Serrada teaching methodology. I have been a teacher most of my adult life in one capacity or another from teaching civilians in both the private and corporate life to training military members of various countries. What has always impressed me about Serrada is the instructional system design. Angel was without a doubt a superb martial artist and fighter but there is a huge difference in the ability to fight and the ability to successfully transfer those hard learned lessons to others. Mike was not the only individual who credited Dentoy with refining the methodology and smoothing out the edges in Serrada. I will also add that in my far too short of time spent with Dentoy he always had a far greater insight than anyone else that I ever met in the Serrada family into why the moves were performed as they were in Serrada. This was an immense contribution to my own understanding into the mechanics of Serrada. As for the difference in Serrada and Dizon's expression and application of Eskrima we will really never know. I couldn't hazard a guess because I have never seen Dizon move. I have never had the pleasure of meeting Fred Lazo but I have seen films of him and there is a huge difference in the way he moves as opposed to the way Angel moved. Mike also lead me to believe that in the early days there was a significant change in the structure of the teaching as Angel with the immense help of Dentoy further refined the actual system methodology. The current discussion about Kali has been extremely interesting. Thank you to all those who have added their thoughts on the matter. Over the years I have noticed a wide variety of explanations as to what the word "Kali" actually means. Personally I really don't care what another person calls their art but I have always wondered why anyone would use a term that they couldn't actually define. It's sort of like titles. One isn't normally defined by one's title but in their contributions and deeds. I have always liked the term, "Guro/Teacher/Instructor." But in today's world it doesn't seem enough for some so they give themselves more fancy titles. I have always wondered about this as well. When the person gave themselves a real fancy title did it elevate their abilities and contributions accordingly? Take care, Rob McDonald ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Eskrima de Campo JDC-IO U.S.A." To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 12:23:30 -0700 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net James, The book is actually available now at http://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.asp?bookid=28322 Jason Autajay Trainer Los Angeles Chapter, United States Eskrima De Campo JDC-IO www.EskrimaDeCampo.com   -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "james jr. sy" Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 06:58:01 -0700 (PDT) Dr. Mark V. Wiley and Dr. Ronald A. Harris made their research in the Philippines, and not in India, because what they were told in the US is that Kali is a contraction of the Visayan words kamot and lihok. Nevertheless, Dr. Ned Nepangue and Mr. Macachor dared to look further. In their upcoming book, Cebuano Escrima: Beyond the Myth, they have touched on the proposed FMA-IMA angle and why such proposition can’t stand rigid academic scrutiny. I don’t want to preempt the book but I’ll assure you, the thorough discussion will put to light the otherwise misty equation. It’s a good read. Makes you think deeper. I know cause I’ve read it. And I highly recommend it. bgdebuque wrote: They should have looked further. To the place where most European, Middle Eastern and Malay languages came from - India. At this very moment, there are several martial-based performing arts in South India which have the phrase "kali" attached to their names. All of them evolved from the South Indian martial arts of Kalaripayattu - probably, also the origin of Shaolin Kung Fu. > > Foreigners such as Dr. Mark V. Wiley and Dr. Ronald A. Harris, both of the > USA, had conducted their research on the term Kali in the Philippines and > their research concur with what the locals had to say. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Watch free concerts with Pink, Rod Stewart, Oasis and more.  Visit MSN In Concert today. --__--__-- Message: 9 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Differences in Dizon's Escriam and Angel's To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 12:23:26 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Don't forget Tatang's influence on Angel, as we know Angel was Dizon's > student but also learnt from Tatang in Manila. If I recollect correctly, when asked about it Tatang did not recall that. Angel had a similar response. So maybe, or maybe not.. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Wieneke, Myron" To: "'eskrima@martialartsresource.net'" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] The Indian connection Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 23:33:01 +0100 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I have never ever heard of even a hint of this so "connection" throughout my education in the Philippines, nor in any reading or even stories or references. We've always been taught that before christianity and islam came into the Philippines, animalism and worship of anscestors and nature was the religion of our forefathers. Even today you see these beliefs intermixed with catholicism. Buddhism's influence came in through the chinese communities but never propagated out in any significant way, probably due to the close community and strick prohibitions of intermarriage in the chinese culture. There is a fair size community of indians in the Philippines, but they also tend to keep to themselves (and unfortunately discriminated on as well). Can't keep up with the large number of emails so I'm not sure where or from whom all these sweeping statements around indian influences or the root of everything (religion, culture, language, martial arts) and almost every continent, but this is not the history I've been taught or have read. Its not to say that there isn't influences that came from "indian" culture (I put quotes as the term indian is more a 20th century political reference to a diverse poly-cultural and poly-lingual sub-continent), as clearly there are. But the statements are very so sweeping it really seems to contradict a lot of what I've learned through the years. Just my 2 cents. -----Original Message----- From: rterry@idiom.com To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Sat May 05 15:16:47 2007 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] The Indian connection > In Southeast Asia, not only Buddhism but Hinduism as well became the > platforms of the spread of Indian culture. Southeast Asia used to be ruled > by a succession of Buddhist and Hindu empires. The areas covered by these > empires include modern-day Indonesia and Malaysia, Southern Thailand, > Southern Cambodia, as well as Central and Southern Philippines. Interesting... Is it indeed a historical fact that Buddhism and Hinduism at one time enjoyed wide acceptance in the Philippines? Or more that Buddhist and Hindi rulers considered the islands as part of their broader empire? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net ============================================================================== Please access the attached hyperlink for an important electronic communications disclaimer: http://www.credit-suisse.com/legal/en/disclaimer_email_ib.html ============================================================================== --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Michael Koblic" To: "Eskrima digest" Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 19:46:10 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Absolutely nothing to do with kali... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwWML0emByQ&NR=1 Comments? Michael Koblic, Campbell River, BC --__--__-- Message: 12 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Absolutely nothing to do with kali... To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 21:05:13 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwWML0emByQ&NR=1 > > Comments? The poor red belt looked like he had not trained for a fight under muay thai rules... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest