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Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 11:34:02 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #28 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1800 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. what does it smell like, really??!! (gordon walker) 2. Re: Anting-anting & orasyon (Kes41355@aol.com) 3. RE: what does it smell like, really??!! (Mike Casto) 4. RE: If This Smells Like (Steve Carlo) 5. RE: Re: Anting-anting & orasyon (Mike Casto) 6. Re: re cults (Marc Macyoung) 7. Re: RE: If This Smells Like (Ken Ingram) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 10:46:06 -0500 (EST) From: gordon walker To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] what does it smell like, really??!! Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi, Legally, how would the technique fair in court, where you control the attackers knife hand and pull him into the blade, or slash him with his own blade? In that case, you wouldnt have touched the knife. Just his hand. True, you have controlled him and could possibly derail the situation easily. Ach! The ethics of knife fighting. Gord --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Kes41355@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 11:15:22 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Anting-anting & orasyon Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all, I wanted to extend my heartfelt thanks to all that responded to my inquiry about anting-anting & orasyon, lots of great information, more than I hoped for. Oh and Mike, we've known each other too long for me to suspect you may ever "speak out of your keester"...I value your opinion and knowledge very highly, and questions that I ask of you always bear out to be answered with insight and an impressive depth of knowledge; don't sell yourself short, you most always know what the hell you're talking about...;-). Mr. Jocano, I don't know you, but your answer was most informative, thank you very much for your response. I look forward to further posts from you; you obviously have a great deal of knowledge to offer the Digest. Thanks again, Kim Satterfield Midwest School of Eskrima --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Mike Casto" To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] what does it smell like, really??!! Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 11:25:04 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "He attacked me with a knife. I was afraid for my life and defended myself." Of course, a good lawyer will be a plus and be able to phrase it in a much more appropriate fashion - but I think that's the gist of the defense. Basically, tell the truth. Mike -----Original Message----- From: gordon walker [mailto:chenstyle44@yahoo.ca] Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 10:46 AM To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] what does it smell like, really??!! Hi, Legally, how would the technique fair in court, where you control the attackers knife hand and pull him into the blade, or slash him with his own blade? In that case, you wouldnt have touched the knife. Just his hand. True, you have controlled him and could possibly derail the situation easily. Ach! The ethics of knife fighting. Gord --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 1800 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Steve Carlo" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] RE: If This Smells Like Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 12:11:14 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Pat! You said:Hi Steve! In English and Welsh Law, as well as Scottish Law (Great Britain) its is not a crime to successfully defend yourself, but you are only allowed to do so using reasonable force. The trouble is it depends who defines the reasonable force issue....Tony Martin There is also the issue in the US (and the UK too? I never got a straight answer from several cops who I used to train with) of whether you are deemed an expert, which I understand is black belt level. If you are deemed an expert you are looked on with a lot more scrutiny than Joe-Schmo who got lucky and defended himself. _________________________________________________________________ Find high-speed ‘net deals — comparison-shop your local providers here. https://broadband.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Mike Casto" To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Re: Anting-anting & orasyon Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 13:03:58 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Well, when I'm not 100% sure of the topic, I like to cover my six just in case I'm not quite on base. If I'm 100% sure of the topic then I don't worry about it. But anting-anting and orasyon are things that I've only been peripherally exposed to so am not 100% sure of :-) Covering my six is a habit I got into after a few poorly phrased posts came back to haunt me. Do you realize that anything we post out here is practically written in concrete - and people, years later, can pick up that chunk of concrete and clunk us in the back of the head? (Somewhat tongue in cheek - but also with a core of truth) So I always try to be careful with my phrasing. Mike -----Original Message----- From: Kes41355@aol.com [mailto:Kes41355@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 11:15 AM To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Anting-anting & orasyon Hi all, I wanted to extend my heartfelt thanks to all that responded to my inquiry about anting-anting & orasyon, lots of great information, more than I hoped for. Oh and Mike, we've known each other too long for me to suspect you may ever "speak out of your keester"...I value your opinion and knowledge very highly, and questions that I ask of you always bear out to be answered with insight and an impressive depth of knowledge; don't sell yourself short, you most always know what the hell you're talking about...;-). Mr. Jocano, I don't know you, but your answer was most informative, thank you very much for your response. I look forward to further posts from you; you obviously have a great deal of knowledge to offer the Digest. Thanks again, Kim Satterfield Midwest School of Eskrima _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 1800 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Marc Macyoung" To: Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 12:27:49 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: re cults Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "Steven Lefebvre" >This is a great discussion! The reason this fascinates me so, is from college up to today, I have spent a large amount of time researching and studying various world religions, and as a part of this, the term "Cult" was often used, especially to describe a small sect that had broken away from the main denomination, and now was outcast from the so called mainstream. >The relationship of "cult like" behavior can be stretched out... Ah, now I understand. Yes, cults are normally associated with relgious splinter/ spirituality groups, but that is not their only manifestation. I was rather surprised myself to see how broad the category really is. One of the things that differeniate cults from religions is that religion really serves a greater sociological purpose. For reasons beyond the scope of this discussion, religions provides functional guidelines for people when dealing with an incredibly wide and complex battery of issues. (this is a basic anthropolicial/sociological contention, if you disagree...go argue with them). These guidelines have been proven functional over generations and they guide people in times of life's transisitions and in their general conduct. Cults do not have such an established, broad and functional set of definitions. They in fact, attempt to replace the old rules with new ones...ones that have been heavily interpreted and influenced by the cult leader. Not to denegrate anyone's religion here, but an analogy to explain the difference between religions and cults is religion could be likened to "According to Hoyle" People play a wide variety of card games every day without checking the rule book. Even so, they are following the rules in general. (Yes I know to the religious minded, this is debatable, but at any point an analogy falls apart). What's more within the guidelines found in Hoyle people pick a wide variety of games to play. However, a cult insist that this one game is the true game and then either throws away Hoyle altogether or claims to have rewritten it -- in either case because what they have is better. Then they proceed to stand over you to make sure you play the game and play it according to their rules. And this doesn't have to be only about relgion/spirituality. Not all cults are religious. This broader category is why "cult-like" behavior is a term that has been being bandied around in the martial arts world. People are noticing that something isn't right, without being able to exactly define what is wrong. > I agree with you on what is written in college business texts, there would never be a chapter on "Manipulation or Psychological Tactics", but how about "Organizing, Models, and Behavior" taken from Production and Operations Management 2nd ed. Everett E. Adam, Jr, Ronald J. Ebert. A large part of management, advertizing, marketing, e-commerce and politics is about manipulation. We have a term "spinmeisters" for people who stretch the truth withoug crossing the line into direct lying (at least the good ones. Read Bill Press, Spin this!"). Having said that, even though these issues are present in a healthy organization, no matter what its function, that health arises because there are counterbalancing influences at work. In otherwords, it is a matter of proportion. There comes a point, however, where it crosses the line. A point where the proportion becomes too much and other counterbalancing portions are sacrificed. When that happens it has left where you started and moved into another realm. Bringing this back to FMA, where does the studying of a blade art stop and the feeding of a fantasy about being a knife fighter begin? Where is that line? And that is a question everyone should really ask themselves. I've met a lot of fine FMA players who recognize that what they are doing is a blade art (not unlike fencing) and they are in it for enjoyment, health and countless other reasons. On the other hand, I have also met players who are convinced that they are knife fighters because they study this deadly art. See what I mean by proportion? > As for commercial vs professional martial arts school: I see no difference between the two names. Really? I do. The way I define it is commerical means the head instructor is making his living off it. Professional means that as well, plus that the instructor and staff conduct themselves in a professional manner. Just cause you're making a living off it, doesn't mean you are professional. A professional school is run according to modern business practices and standards. You walk into a professional instititution and it is immediately obvious that you are in a "tightly run ship." Recognize that the reason I make this distinction is that I am also affiliated with several law enforcement training organizations and firearms training academies. There is a big difference between how those places are run and your average strip mall dojo. I have also seen some incredibly tight and successful martial arts schools that function along these same professional lines. >This debate on not making money for teaching the martial arts, is long and old. Obviously, I am not against someone making a living from teaching. I wholeheartedly subscribe to a statement made by Steve Plinck the first time we got him out here to Colorado. "You're not paying for this information. The information is free. That's because I know, that in order to be good at it, you will have to work hard and practice. What you are paying for is my time" I am of the firm opinion that people should be paid for their time. That is one of the standards of professionalism. >Most schools never get beyond the "small" size, and therefore do rely on volunteer teachers, or part time pay to supplement a regular career. And here is where we run into a "problem." Dr. Joe Bablonka, a specialist in management problem solving, once made a very important remark to me about this very situation. "Volunteers don't work for free." They're getting something out of it. And for good or bad, volunteers can strongly influence the culture of an organization. This influence is the pricetag for their volunteering. And with that in mind, the person's agenda becomes very important, especially if it is unstated, personal and dysfunctional. This is why volunteers are such a sticky wicket and not widely used in professional, instead of commercial endeavors. >Look at Steve Lavalle, Allie Alberigo, Steven Oliver, the Kovar Brothers, Ernie Reyes Sr, and Jr, they all run large business models in a professional >manner. Their full time employees receive benefits, part time workers >receive pay commiserate to their work, and the top management receive high >income just like any other typical business. My point exactly, professional businesses. However, I think you will find a) that what they teach is not exactly "traditional" (and this is not a "dis" but rather a statement of fact as it has been modified to function in a business sense) and b) they are the exception rather than the rule. >So in regards to the reference >to other businesses, many psychological techniques are used in management of >others, or even their customers. There is a category of cults classified as >"commercial or corporate", and so any business has to be careful of cult >like behavior. Yes, you can find the link to Arnott's page about corporate cults on the cults Webpage. All of which supports the contention that cults are not neccessarily just religious in nature, but can crop up anywhere -- including in the martial arts world. >By the way in your footnote (7) I have had to have threaten several martial >arts school instructors with legal action for very similar slanderous >remarks and unethical business behaviors. Uh...no... I've threatened several high ranking cult members with physical violence over what I percieved to be "them taking a run at me" or other rude and obnoxious behavior. To be more precise, I've let several "true believers" decide if they want to really find out if their ultimate fighting system would save their lives -- or if it was in everyone's best interest for them to get out of my face. Thus far, the track record is a quick trip back to good behavior. This is an unfortunate, (and thank god only occassional) side effect of my so-called "fame" when it comes to street violence. Although I am articulate, reasonable and patient these days, there is a reason I survived the streets of Los Angeles. Few people meet "Animal" in these modern times and when I revert there is no question about whether or not I am "real" (as is so often questioned on the internet). I ignore trash talking over the internet, hostile emails and a certain degree of behavior in my presence that can be justified as simple naivete or unintentional rudeness. But I take offense when someone tries to pick a fight with me or goes out of their way to be offensive in my presence. It sets off a lot of old buttons for me as it is a hold over from the bad old days when someone taking a run at you really meant that he was trying to kill you. "You can take the boy out of the streets..." and all that. As for instructors, I make it a habit not to dis anybody. The conflicts that I have had with other instructors tend to revolve more around copyright violations (i.e. them teaching my stuff and claiming that they invented it). Since all I ask is for people to cite their sources (www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/NIH.html) most of these have been easily resolved. >But why bring this topic up in a Filipino Martial Arts digest? Actually, it's not specific to this list. I've sent this link far and wide. Which is to say that I am not pointing fingers at the FMA world. --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 11:52:48 -0800 (PST) From: Ken Ingram To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] RE: If This Smells Like Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Steve, I don't often contribute to the list but this topic is one that I have juggled in my own mind quite often and I'd like to add my two bits. First let me qualify my contribution: These are my personal thoughts and ideas and I base any legal wording on my own study of what the "law" books say. I understand Civil Procedure but not Criminal Procedure. The Rules of Evidence, however, follow a basic tenet and anyone who is curious about what is likely to be considered "evidence" is welcome to search the web or go to a Law Library and get the actual facts. That said, here's my deal. I am NOT an expert in martial arts. To admit that I AM an expert is to presume that I have acieved some level of knowledge that is unquestionable. The truth is, in a number of ways my knowledge is very questionable. The answer to the question is the TRUE test of my knowledge. Be that as it may, calling myself an expert or allowing someone else to call me an expert without questioning their so-called evaluation seems to be a real EGO-TRIP. What is another person's basis for evaluating my level of knowledge. Perhaps at any given time my mastery of a knowledge set would be higher than another person's but to claim the term "MASTER" in general creates a large degree of implications. If one does not qualify the term then ALL implications of the term "mastery" WILL be inferred and this is where trouble starts on many levels. Honestly, mastery of any subject is a lifelong process. For me that is the implication of the term. A master has spent his entire life in pursuit of the highest levels of understanding of a subject. This search for mastery only ends at death (or transcendence if you will). At any given time I think it would be accurate to self-describe myself as a STUDENT of fighting arts from both an historical and functional basis. This being said, in my esoteric studies of the psychology, physiology, strategy and history of warfare and individual methods of surviving battle I have learned that pure instinct is activated when one finds their continued safety and well-being in question. I personally am incapable of premeditating my response to a life-threatening situation. In fact I am not masterfully efficient at determining the intentions of another human being when I feel unsafe. As a result, if I am accosted or otherwise the subject of aggressive interaction, my instincts based on my study and empathic connection to the history of martial methods will undoubtedly become a factor in my unconcious response to a situation. Were I to "MASTER" the esoteric concepts that I routinely investigate, it is likely that such mastery would include a mastery over my subconcious responses. In that case I am likely to evaluate and avoid dangerous situations long before they occur. This is my best use of "premeditation". Still though, even a well-conditioned student of avoidance can have an off day. So we're back to the idea that subconcious response and what it uses as a focal point really dictates the concept of "reasonable force" Now, from the standpoint of legal procedure, the prosecution will always seek to diminish the value of explanations indicating extenuating circumstances. Also, there will be an attempt to minimize or outright nullify the concept of "non-premeditation" and anything in support of such a theory, while reenforcing the idea of premeditation. Fundamentally an unconcious response cannot be "reasonable" it is pure instinct. By definition instinct is not "controllable". Therefore the theory of "reasonable force" is tantamount to admitting concious control which then creates the connection to premeditation. I believe that far too many "martial artists" go to jail from defending themselves because their ego is involved in being seen as a "master" which creates the affirmative defense (a tactic of admitting the charge, with the hope that by proving extenuating circumstances the illegal action can be justified). Further not enough discussion is really given to philosophy in fighting arts so that we understand WHY we react certain ways. (and Not just Buddhism vs Taoism vs (?)-ism, but just personal philosophy.) If we are adept at integrating our study of martial principles and concepts as means of truly understanding the knowledge, then those students who are particularly adept at empathizing and connecting physically and spiritually with the knowledge must understand that their unconcious responses will begin to filter through that source. So, it would appear that in GB, the U.S. and most "civilized"/"democratic" nations "reasonable force" is the guiding factor. And I reiterate, instincts decimate the argument around "reasonable force". Admitting to being a "Master" of fighting arts should be good enough to show premeditation. Ego-tripping is the best way to guarantee jail time even in a "justifiable" homicide. Ultimately it's the jury who will decide the appropriateness of the law (hopefully people choose a jury. In the U.S. it is your right. Furthermore a fully informed jury is available [http://www.fija.org]). "An arrogant martial artist" is a redundant phrase these days. To the unintiate a "humble" student of martial arts appears to be an oxymoron. In general, I tend to concur with the observation, although exceptions to the rule exist. There is a pervasive negative image with martial arts people in general that unfortunately seems to be well-earned. "Cobra Kai!" Also, a policeman will NOT tell you the answer to what is deemed an expert because that would be giving legal advice. Their OPINION is probably reasonable to ask for, assuming that they feel inclined to give it outside of a courtroom. But then what makes a policeman any more reasonable to determine an "expert" fighter than a librarian? I think a medical doctor would be the most reasonable arbiter of that argument. Or perhaps a historian well-versed in battle tactics and man-to-man warfare. In any case a black belt really serves to provide an indication of mastery over fundamentals. It does not and should not imply mastery of strategy, philosophy, history or other elements of fighting too numerous to name. Is a boxer with 20-years of experience in the ring and out plus experience in real firearms-based combat a "black belt"? Or would he simply be a good fighter? And if he did have a black belt would it completely convey the true extent of his CHARACTER and combat skill set? True mastery should be defined by how well you can evaluate a situation and how you are able to make a basd one go away without violence. Violence is a LAST resort. The instincts of someone with a high level of expertise or mastery (which I submit is distinct from being an EXPERT or MASTER. These words have far-reaching implications and suggest a finality which may be questionable) are dangerous to behold. Since there are many students of martial disciplines that have passed long before many of us were a twinkle in our parent's eye, who's to say what a master or expert is? Whew! That should be enough conribution for the next 12 months. Ken I. On Wed, 21 Jan 2004, Steve Carlo wrote: > Hi Pat! > > You said:Hi Steve! In English and Welsh Law, as well as Scottish Law (Great > Britain) its is not a crime to successfully defend yourself, but you are > only allowed to do so using reasonable force. > > The trouble is it depends who defines the reasonable force issue....Tony > Martin > > There is also the issue in the US (and the UK too? I never got a straight > answer from several cops who I used to train with) of whether you are deemed > an expert, which I understand is black belt level. If you are deemed an > expert you are looked on with a lot more scrutiny than Joe-Schmo who got > lucky and defended himself. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Find high-speed ‘net deals — comparison-shop your local providers here. > https://broadband.msn.com > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1800 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > -- =========================================== A very fundamental definition: politics - social relations involving authority or power. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues available @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest